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This interview between former SAIC and Pfizer executive, Chris Martenson and professor of Clinical Psychology at Ghent University in Belgium, Matthias Desmet is a truly enriching, very high-level philosophical discourse about consciousness.

Desmet’s theory of mass formation psychosis exploded into mainstream awareness earlier this year, when Dr Robert Malone described it on the Joe Rogan podcast.

In Desmet’s new book, the ‘Psychology of Totalitarianism’ he explains what mass formation is, how it develops, how it’s been repeatedly weaponized to implement Totalitarianism and what we must do to stop the conditions for these mass formation events from being created in the first place.


Desmet starts his conversation with Martenson by explaining the difference between Totalitarianism and what he calls “simple dictatorship”. He says that prior to the 20th century, the world had never known Totalitarianism; there had merely been dictatorships. He says, “Many people confuse Totalitarianism with classical dictatorships but it’s something completely different.

“The classical dictatorship has a very simple psychological structure…it’s the population that is scared of a small group of people – the dictatorial regime and therefore, the population accepts that this small group of people imposes unilaterally its social contract to society. That’s classical dictatorship.

“Totalitarian states are something completely different. The psychological basis is completely different. It’s much more impressive…and much more profound. Totalitarian systems are based on the process of mass formation, a kind of group dynamic which makes part of the population fanatically believe in a certain narrative or a certain ideology and when this group, this mass is led by few leaders, they can easily seize control of society and that’s when a new kind of state system emerges; a Totalitarian state, which not only controls political space and public space, such as a classical dictatorship does – but which also controls private space, because the Totalitarian state has a huge secret police a its disposal. Namely, this part of the population that fanatically believes in the state narrative.”

In the 20th century, we saw Communist Totalitarianism and Fascist Totalitarianism but what we’re now facing is a Technocratic Totalitarianism, led not by gang leaders, like Stalin and Hitler but by dull bureaucrats and Technocrats, such as the Young Global Leaders of the World Economic Forum, like Justin Trudeau, Chrystia Freeland Jacinda Ardern, Emmanuel Macron, Gavin Newsom, Pete Buttigieg and others.


But what Soviet Russia’s Historical Materialism and Hitler’s racialist Neo-Darwinism all have in common with the World Economic Forum’s Transhumanist iteration of today is they are all variants of the Mechanist ideology and its view of mankind and of the world; the idea that the entire universe is made up of elementary particles that behave mechanistically and that can all be perfectly understood in a rational way.

“That’s the essence of Mechanist ideology,” Desmet says. “The belief that the universe is a machine and that everything can be understood in a rational way, controlled in a rational way, manipulated in a rational way and that the essence of life can be reduced to the categories of our own logical understanding.

“That’s the core problem we are facing now. It’s that kind of thinking, that kind of ideology that ultimately leads to the concentration camps.”  

Martenson agrees. As a classically-trained scientist himself, he has observed that, “Good scientists, right when they get to the edge of what the known is, they almost invariably become spiritual on some level, because they go, ‘Wow, I rationalized al the way down to the heart of this thing and it’s completely irrational,’ meaning, it’s ineluctable; you can’t describe it in words, you can’t get your arms around it. The more you try to understand it, the less you can. So you have to come at it with the irrational side of us, which we can also call intuition…

“There’s an evolutionary process, here and that’s what’s before us right now: nothing less than…the heart of our species is really at the cusp of something and if we get it wrong, we get to a place that ends in mass atrocity. Guess what? We’ve been there before. Probably not a lot more to learn from that except it sucks.

“But there’s this other path we could take but first, we have to understand the dimension of the problem.”

This short video is actually a great discussion about how rational understanding, while it does have its place, it is not capable of understanding the essence of life, which is something that Desmet ran into, while studying complex dynamical systems.

“When I dove deep into Dynamical Systems Theory, I suddenly understood that the essence of life and of nature is irrational. That’s what it shows. This theory shows that paradoxically, in a strictly rational way that the essence of every complex dynamical system, that it always behaves irrationally – literally, like an irrational number…

“If you walk down the road of irrationality to the very end, you will soon stumble upon a land that you can never enter with rational thinking.

“And then, you have to switch. You have to develop this other kind of knowing the world. This much more ‘resonating’ way of knowing the world; a way of knowing the world, which brings you in touch with the real, which brings you in touch with the eternal principles of life – which are ethical principles! (Laughs)


“So, you make this switch from an existence based on rational understanding to a existence based on the more resonating knowing and in which you feel, become in touch with principles, which can never be articulated in a definitive way but which allow you to position yourself in life and in society towards other people…I went through this process myself…

“At the moment that I started to become aware of the fact that rational understanding is limited and never capable of grasping the essence of life, it was like a true revelation for me.

“I started to feel that suddenly, that if you are convinced that everything around you can be reduced to the categories of your own logical understanding, you actually constantly destroy your connection with life. You constantly destroy your awareness of the mystery of life…

“If we fanatically think in a logical way…it is literally as if we build a wall around us, through which we isolate ourselves from the music of life, from the vibration of life and as soon as you can accept that your logical understanding will always be limited and will never deliver you the ultimate knowledge – this is as if all the logical building blocks slide away, a little bit from each other.

“And as if the eternal music of life can enter your being through the host and can touch the strings of your being and can make you resonate with the eternal vibration of life – and that’s the moment, as well, when you start to overcome the fear of death and dying; just because you feel that you’re part of something eternal.

“That’s my own experience. I’m not against rational understanding – not at all – you have to walk the path of rationality as far as possible to finally reach the limit and enter a country that is so much more beautiful than the rational country…

“So, rationality – perfect, very necessary – we are not rational enough. But if we would be rational enough, we would soon arrive at the limit of rationality.” Desmet goes on to say that science was once revolutionary but it has since become a dogmatic and oppressive tool.

The mechanistic, materialistic, atheistic mindset of Yuval Harari and the World Economic Forum is not just dead it IS death and it is doomed to failure.


Martenson agrees and he believes that, “This is a great moment for people to wake up and say, ‘Oh! Actually, this was not just Totalitarianism, it was the whole subset of conditions that led to that Totalitarianism – those were so bleak that Totalitarianism made sense’…

“The question is, where do we go forward? And to me, that’s why this story has so much energy. It’s so exciting, because this is an opportunity for people to actually wake up in this life. They have and find the idea that’s trying to speak through them or whatever their arc is.”

Desmet agrees, saying, “What we are going through is a process in which something new is born.”

He says that uncertainty is what truly makes a human being human and every time someone attempts to eliminate uncertainty, he dehumanizes life and that’s exactly what Totalitarian leaders do.

“Totalitarian leaders believe they have the ultimate answers. Stalin said literally, ‘My population should react like a dog of Pavlov to what I say. They shouldn’t think. They should react as machines…He wants to exclude all uncertainty. He wanted to impose one way, one theory, one ideology in a relentless way on society. That’s so characteristic of Totalitarianism, is the core root of Totalitarianism. The word, ‘Totalitarianism’ means exactly that…a total theory of how society should be organized…It’s a radical incapacity to experience the fundamental uncertainty of human existence, as the precondition for creation, singularity and uniqueness in life.


Martenson says many of us are swept up in the apparent inevitability that “We will eat ze bugs and we will own nothing,” etc. and Desmet explains that this is the mechanism of the mass formation at work.

“The most absurd theories seem inevitably right when you are in a mass formation. That’s exactly what the mechanism of mass formation shows so clearly, that when you are in the mass formation, your attention is so focused, you see only a small very part of reality. And you see only these things that confirm the narrative you believe in and all the rest, you’re not aware of any longer, so that’s a strange fact, indeed.

“That’s the explanation why people in the end start to become convinced that when the number of contaminations for the corona crisis increases a little bit, that the country should go into lockdown, that there is no other option…

Hannah Arendt said, that as soon as you accept the starting point A, then you also have to go to the end of the ‘murderous alphabet’, she said.

“As soon as you say ‘A’, you have to say B, C, D until Z, until the end of the murderous alphabet. And it’s strange, for someone who is not in the grip of the phenomenon, he sees very clearly how absurd it is. He sees, ‘OK. You want to save some people’s lives by going into lockdown – but these lockdowns will kill maybe 100 times more people than the virus cold kill.

“But no matter how many times you will repeat that to someone, matter how much you will try to show them the absurdity of their line of reasoning, they usually won’t be convinced, simply because they are in a state of mass formation, which makes the focus of attention so narrow and which focuses all the psychological energy so much on a very limited set of representations, that the other representations have no impact anymore…

“So at the end, it’s something like that, it’s this process that leads to the experience of inescapability. The ‘only way’ to save ourselves, the ‘only way’ to deal with the problems we have is this totalitarian ideology…

“That’s exactly why this theory of mass formation is important, because it can make you understand, it shows why people are in this strange mental state, in which they become completely blind to everything that shows that what they believe in is absurd.”

More importantly, the absurdity of the beliefs during mass formation is followed by the absurdity of cruelties. A radical intolerance towards anything that goes against the absurd beliefs is the hallmark of mass formation.

Contributed by


Alexandra Bruce

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  • Sounds like he wants a cookie and goes for Cookie ,
    Except him and cookies belong in a Rubber Room.
    This is a 3 Demension world and he gets to eat his cookies in rubber room.

  • Fascinating! So the next step for our rational science is not trans humanism, it’s a feeling/resonating kind of science (which is what the old world probably already had) that is something I can definitely get behind 🙂

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